Curse

Verene · Dec 29, 2010, 04:40 AM // 04:40

...intent is meaningless. What you intended to say does not matter; it's what you actually do say that matters. Mansplaining is not a sexist term towards men at all; it's a common phenomenon that men talk down to women and try and explain things assuming that they know better, when in fact the woman 1) already knows it and 2) oftentimes knows better.

http://fanniesroom.blogspot.com/2010...splaining.html
http://karenhealey.livejournal.com/853361.html
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-mal...ege-checklist/

Yes, society has it's issues in how it sees men (for example, guys have to grow up to be tough or whatnot). But even with that, it comes down it bigotry and misogyny; guys that don't meet the required level of toughness, or fail at being properly 'manly' are laughed at and called girls or gay or whatnot. Because obviously being seen as a female or homosexual is an insult. Yes, this is problematic - but because of the fact that it feeds into homophobia and sexism against women, not that it's sexist against guys or anything of the sort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

Hi Verene,

Did you know that over 95% of all child custody cases in the world are won by women, whether or not they are the better/more financially stable/more responsible/more capable/more loving parent and whether or not it is what's best for the child? They are awarded custody over 95% of the time simply because they are female.

Just a thought.

Pretty much irrelevant for two reasons.

1) That is only recent times, and as recently as 50 years ago it was the exact opposite.

2) That happens because of the sexist view that caring for children is solely the responsibility of the woman.

Try again.

obastable · Dec 29, 2010, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

...intent is meaningless. What you intended to say does not matter; it's what you actually do say that matters. Mansplaining is not a sexist term towards men at all; it's a common phenomenon that men talk down to women and try and explain things assuming that they know better, when in fact the woman 1) already knows it and 2) oftentimes knows better.

http://fanniesroom.blogspot.com/2010...splaining.html
http://karenhealey.livejournal.com/853361.html
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-mal...ege-checklist/

Yes, society has it's issues in how it sees men (for example, guys have to grow up to be tough or whatnot). But even with that, it comes down it bigotry and misogyny; guys that don't meet the required level of toughness, or fail at being properly 'manly' are laughed at and called girls or gay or whatnot. Because obviously being seen as a female or homosexual is an insult. Yes, this is problematic - but because of the fact that it feeds into homophobia and sexism against women, not that it's sexist against guys or anything of the sort.

Pretty much irrelevant for two reasons.

1) That is only recent times, and as recently as 50 years ago it was the exact opposite.

2) That happens because of the sexist view that caring for children is solely the responsibility of the woman.

Try again.

Then what do you call what you're doing here? Womansplaining? I am, afterall, a woman, a mother to a teenager, and a spouse to a rather nice man, and I was recently fired for having a miscarriage. I have two degrees, am a trained Chef, and work in a skilled trade. I'm pretty sure I know what it's like to be a woman, and to deal with men & sexism. Surely I don't need you to explain it to me? It is no less insulting to me than it is to any man you throw "mansplaining" at. It is not just the words and is, in fact, also the intent of those words. If you mean to insult or talk down to someone then it really doesn't matter what words you use. Don't attempt to say you weren't doing this. "Try again" says it all, as if you had defeated every word or point I made with your womansplaining in one foul swoop, and that I should surely make another attempt at knowing or sharing something of value.

Just because women blog about it doesn't mean it isn't insulting. A word to describe a set of actions, whether those actions are true or not, or were taken as intended or not, can still be offensive, insulting, and sexist at the core. It's not as if I haven't heard the term "mansplaining" before, but thank you nonetheless for womansplaining it away to me.

Re:

1 - So? Does this make it acceptable to be as it is now?

2 - False. A woman is not given custody if she does not want it. She has only to say "I want it" to get it, and regardless of any other factors she will be given it in almost all cases.

Master Fuhon · Dec 29, 2010, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmerdro

If you are interested in participating further in this conversation, then I would suggest you try to express yourself in a more direct and concise manner.

Confidence trumps intelligence in the real world, especially when with great knowledge comes great uncertainty. Interesting call on using a low-grade FreeDictionary trump card. Using a thesaurus is like begging to have a semantics arugment. I usually try to give people the respect of a reasoned debate, but I can do it the other way as well since you have. Congratulations for knowing that you can 'win' an argument by only targeting the confidence of the other person, without using a base of knowledge to win the debate. That doesn't work on me, so how about I just move to this same style for 'directness'?

I heard it's worse than mansplaining to try to curry the favor of women hundreds or thousands of miles away by trying to argue a 'feminist' stance, and defending the 'innocent' female posters. Maybe someone needs to point out that chivalry is not about bending over backwards for any random woman; but it's about doing thoughtful and respectful things for your the people close to you. Your arguments distinctly read as anti-man instead of pro-woman, and the stances of misandry and true feminism are not the same in debate. While feminism is a valid cause, I certainly intend to make no friends out of apparent unrepentent misandrists. Nor do I intend to spend more time in an argument not based on facts.

When a woman calls someone mansplainer it's often explainable away as teasing banter. But a man who says it, means it, and continues to argue about it, is an intended sell-out of his own sex. But for what though? The quality women I've met in life don't want a pushover, a sell-out, or someone who gives her the same treatment he gives a woman he just met. Or do these men call themselves 'nice guys' and the other guys a**holes? Yea, it's a black or white world where standing up for your own knowledge and giving a woman a real critique on hers makes you an a**.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

Mansplaining is not a sexist term towards men at all; it's a common phenomenon that men talk down to women and try and explain things assuming that they know better, when in fact the woman 1) already knows it and 2) oftentimes knows better.

http://fanniesroom.blogspot.com/2010...splaining.html
http://karenhealey.livejournal.com/853361.html
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-mal...ege-checklist/

Yes, society has it's issues in how it sees men (for example, guys have to grow up to be tough or whatnot). But even with that, it comes down it bigotry and misogyny; guys that don't meet the required level of toughness, or fail at being properly 'manly' are laughed at and called girls or gay or whatnot. Because obviously being seen as a female or homosexual is an insult. Yes, this is problematic - but because of the fact that it feeds into homophobia and sexism against women, not that it's sexist against guys or anything of the sort.

The psychology of 'mansplaining' is that it also 'works' because many women are still less confident at expressing their knowledge as openly as men do in technical fields; not always the true bad mark on the person doing the 'splaining that some might claim it to be. I once met a girl who was supposed to train me how to use a lab device; she came across as not really being that smart or knowing how to use the thing because of her nervousness. I mostly had to figure things out on my own, in fact, my male boss was the one who taught me more about how to use it in less time than I spent with her. Later I found out she was a quad major, Goldwater Scholar and athelete. But since I didn't seem to know what I was doing after her teaching me the first time, my boss 'mansplained' things (adult to student mansplaining) until I could demonstrate I knew well enough on my own and was confident in doing it. From that point on, he then gave me odd looks as if I was fooling around with that girl instead of working.

The rest of the stuff, I'm guessing you've never had a conversation that was not politically correct on a controversial topic. The default position is not male guilt and surrender. That is why people are only 'winning arguments' and not equality in the real world. A few years ago when I used to debate with my mother and brother, she always accused us of ganging up on women because she knew she would lose the argument. Now she can debate with us on complex topics. Mommy raises a boy, but the world hardens him into a man because we can no longer use cop-outs like 'sexism' no matter how obviously people hate men. My mother has a very stressful job, public school teacher, and she often gets deliquent kids with parents who don't care and has overbearing an principal pressuring her to get test score improvements with the lower students. Before we started debating, she was ready to retire over the stress. She's alot more confident now.

It's feminism in action when women actively learn how to deal in a stressful world, rather than complain about how impossible everything is. Misguided misogyny is what continues to set the movement back. Male 'social privelege' is that we have to deal with men all the time, and we can't ever escape that. Men have to adapt, and even learn to enjoy humoring the more priveleged men who play us like puppets. Try calling a person 'priveleged' who has to work his way up from poverty like most of us do. It's a complete joke, and you'll get the rightful response that you don't understand it.

DreamRunner · Dec 29, 2010, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmerdro

And I'm saying that's what feminism is about. Feminism wants to change society in its entirety. Because there's nothing wrong with women as a whole, it's the social dynamics that are currently present that need to be improved.

I do not care. What you think of what feminism is has no relevance at all to this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmerdro

And this is the part where you are mansplaining. You don't know what Sariaru is doing besides this online survey (nor what she can or can not do) and you don't know what she was told to do by her teacher (in order to pass the course). And, even though you're missing so much crucial information in order to make an informed suggestion, you still felt the need to tell her how feminism is done right.

You're jumping towards a conclusion. Where did I say anything about understanding women's issues better than women? This is nothing to do about my opinion of feminism, or how feminism is done right. I only suggest to her about how to gather relevant information via different way through qualitative research means. You do realize there is a different between gathering data, and analyzing the data you have gathered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

But if she's specifically looking for responses from people who 1) play video games, 2) maintain an active online presence, and 3) play online...where is better to look - a forum for an online video game, or their campus where they may not find anyone who fits the criteria they're looking for?

And no, you did come off as a condescending mansplainer.

That is true. The demographic she focused on would fit her criteria, but it would depend on the answers she seeks. For instance, the internet and online game play is from people all across the globe whom are bound by different social rules and different social networks. Unfortunately, I would only assume feminism hasn't impact in every part of the globe, and has impacted differently in different countries. Therefore there isn't a universal definition of feminism which everyone would agree upon. I guess you're a feminist and you would have, I am sure heard about this before.

So the condescending attitude is different from a normal mansplainer? If you are going to throw around the word towards me, at least quote me from your definition.

Schmerdro · Dec 29, 2010, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

Sexism is sexism, whether its instigated by a man or a woman.

I agree that men are sometimes discriminated against because of their gender and men's rights is a valuable topic for discussion. But this particular topic was started for feminism, not masculism. There's nothing wrong with discussing men's oppression, just do it in a thread where it's relevant :P We can't discuss all the issues in the world in the same thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

[Women] are also far more likely to argue and attempt to justify our sexist remarks and actions and strut it away under the banner of womens rights

And there's a good deal of historical data for women's oppression that justify such an action. The same can not be said for men.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

I'm pretty sure I know what it's like to be a woman, and to deal with men & sexism.

I don't think anybody was doubting your womanhood. What I am doubting is your knowledge of feminism (and maybe Verene feels the same way).

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

Surely I don't need you to explain it to me?

So what you're saying is that, since you're a woman, you can't possibly ever be accused of oppressing other women? And that doesn't sound like a highly privileged and condescending attitude to you?

Let's look at it this way. You're accusing Verene of talking down to you, basically oppressing you. And, I think, she's accusing you of talking down to her, basically oppressing her. So, no matter who is right, you both believe that sometimes women oppress other women. And feminism is specifically focused on ending women's oppression. Which means that, just because you're a woman, does not mean you have an decent comprehension of feminism.

On a more general note, women often oppress other women in order to fit in with other (usually more economically or socially powerful) men. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that; all living human beings have a right to make themselves feel safe and secure (shelter is one of the basic requirements to life). And women sometimes meet violent consequences solely for being a feminist. Can you honestly say that men are ever threatened with violence solely for being an MRA? Losing the custody of your child, after divorce, is truly painful... but it's not as bad as being dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

Confidence trumps intelligence in the real world, especially when with great knowledge comes great uncertainty

Ok, what is that? Could you look at that sentence and explain it to me? I don't even...
Most of the things that you say are so unspecific and you make so many assumptions that I can't understand anything of what you're saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

Nor do I intend to spend more time in an argument not based on facts.

That's cool with me. I think I'm going to stop replying to your posts as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

I do not care. What you think of what feminism is has no relevance at all to this discussion.

I'm glad you said that. I would like to direct you to the Feminism 101 Blog. "Gender expectations," "sexist stereotypes," "double standards" and "oppressions" are all social dynamics. Feminism isn't about what women experience, that's far too broad of a topic; it focuses solely on what harms women. And this IS relevant because it means that men have a right to report how and if women are being oppressed. This is all a response to you claiming that Sariaru shouldn't consider the responses from self-identified men on this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

there is a different between gathering data, and analyzing the data you have gathered

Yep. I never argued with you how the data should be analyzed. I was arguing what "meaningful data" consists of (namely, that it comes from men too) and how it should be gathered (namely, that Sariaru knows far better than you because only she knows what her teacher and her teacher assistant told her to do). It doesn't matter what you think is "the right way," Sariaru is mostly doing this to pass her course and only she knows what's best for her.

obastable · Dec 29, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmerdro

And there's a good deal of historical data for women's oppression that justify such an action. The same can not be said for men.

The "eye for an eye" theory is mildly barbaric and mundane, and does not force us to evolve more civilized means of dealing with each other. This is also a double standard; They did it in the past, but it is not acceptable for them to do it now. However, it is perfectly acceptable for us to do it now, because they did so in the past. <- You can't have equality while demanding to be treated with exceptions.

Quote:

I don't think anybody was doubting your womanhood. What I am doubting is your knowledge of feminism (and maybe Verene feels the same way).

Just because I don't agree with every comment either of you makes doesn't mean I'm uneducated and/or ignorant to the subject. It means I have a different opinion on the matter.

Quote:

So what you're saying is that, since you're a woman, you can't possibly ever be accused of oppressing other women?

Actually, what I said is the exact opposite of this, and Verene unwittingly proved my point.

In favour of not derailing this thread any further I'll not respond to other bits and pieces that piqued my interest ...

Schmerdro · Dec 29, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

The "eye for an eye" theory is mildly barbaric and mundane [...] This is also a double standard; They did it in the past, but it is not acceptable for them to do it now.

My point was that there is concrete data that women have been oppressed for centuries, if not millenniums. That way of thinking has been the accepted norm for a very long period of time, what makes you so sure that it all changed in the last 20-30 years? It's not about "an eye for an eye," it's just common sense. Woman have been oppressed in the past, far more than men have been oppressed, so they are far more likely feel oppressed when they see how much more power men still have compared to women. It is an ugly part of our past and we all need to make sure it doesn't happen again, that history will not repeat itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

I have a different opinion on the matter.

Yes, a non-feminist opinion. All I'm saying is that you're not a feminist, that some women are not feminists. And there's nothing wrong with that; I'm sure you have your reasons to not be a feminist, many women do. But, what I do object to is that, you're trying to discredit the experience of other women, who do feel oppressed, by using your gender as your authority on the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

Women are the first and foremost barrier to womens rights and equality

That is misogyny. Just because you're a woman, doesn't mean you understand what all the other women in the world go through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

It is no less insulting to me than it is to any man you throw "mansplaining" at

And, by the way, I don't think you understand what "manspaining" actually is. It's when a man talks down to a woman. This word has been made up because it is a very common phenomenon, just like racism and homophobia. Are you also "insulted" or made uncomfortable when people mention those 2 words? "Womansplaining" is not a real word that has been proven by innumerable past occurrences, it's just something you made up in order to insult Verene.

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Dec 29, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Wow.

Here's my $.02:

As a straight male, I find the majority of GW players, both male and female, to be ignorant, racist, sexist, and homophobic.

That is not an exaggeration. I feel that the MAJORITY could be described with at least one of these terms.

As a reader of these forums, I find only greater support for the aforementioned conclusion.

Verene, Schmerdro, I'm not sure why you bother trying to deal with people like this.

Master Fuhon · Dec 29, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmerdro

That's cool with me. I think I'm going to stop replying to your posts as well.

Of course you aren't. Why argue with males who will challenge you, when you can try to use your simplified version of facts to try to guilt women? You keep telling people they don't live up to a standard of 'feminism', which is really overt man-hatred. Some people can only try, and just because they don't succeed at the highest societal level, it doesn't mean that feminism can't exist at a family/workplace level. But keep insinuating that feminism requires your complete male approval. No wonder your vision of the world is coated with oppression, and not males and females sharing power at the family level at least.

Lord Dagon · Dec 29, 2010, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by sariaru

Dear GW Folk,

I am imploring you for assistance on a research paper for my women's studies project. Mainly, it's just answering a few questions about females and how they're perceived in online gaming. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

1. Are you male or female?

Male

2. Do you play male characters, female characters, or both? If you play characters from the opposite gender, why?

I play mostly female characters. I play characters from the female gender becasue i just dont like the look of the male characters. They tend to be either really creepy.. or just dorky. Aswell as the armor just not having as much detail and care as the female armor does(best example of this is elementalist)

3. How many female characters that you see do you think are actually being played by males? Why do you think men do this? Does it bother you?

i'd say maybe 60% of female characters are male. Most of the female friends i have in the game tend to play as male chracters(from my exp with this anyway, my freinds tend to see anet protraying the women in this game as sex objects, i.e: female ele dance). Well i do it because the characters tend to look nice/more polished as females then the males. And as above the armor is alot nicer and ornate. No it doesnt bother me.

4. Elsewhere on the Internet (forums, chat rooms, etc), how do you believe women are generally viewed? Do you believe this is "fair" or "just"?

Well that depends on where you go. i've seen forums that essentially attack someone in pms or openly if they are female with perverse comments and images and sexual implications. I've also seen the same on other forums of women doign that to men. So in response to women: i'd say it depends where you go, on gameing forums its typically fine for women( there is the occasional a-hole who is cruel to women but its not common) on other parts i can't say because i dont go on chat room and such. And if i a women si being attacked because of her sexuality then no its no fair or just(but there is 2 sides of a coin to that).

5. How much of a margin, if any, do you believe that men have over women when it comes to Internet usage? Online PC gaming? Online console gaming?

Well in my exsperience i'd say on internet usuage its almsot maybe women that use the internet more. I have alot of friends that are on constently doing this or that on the internet. PC gameing i'd say men do have the amrgin.. but really only slightly. Console gameing.. well some of the newer consoles(360,ps3) i'd say men have a larger margin. but on some of the older ones(ps2, gamecube, even Wii) its preety even(maybe more women)

6. Any other comments?

i'd say this is a very interesting survey. It gave me alot of thought about gender roles in the internet.. and helped(at least to me) dispel alot of falseities on the internet having no women. so good job

really silly quotes dont count as characters :P

obastable · Dec 29, 2010, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmerdro

My point was that there is concrete data that women have been oppressed for centuries, if not millenniums. That way of thinking has been the accepted norm for a very long period of time, what makes you so sure that it all changed in the last 20-30 years? It's not about "an eye for an eye," it's just common sense. Woman have been oppressed in the past, far more than men have been oppressed, so they are far more likely feel oppressed when they see how much more power men still have compared to women. It is an ugly part of our past and we all need to make sure it doesn't happen again, that history will not repeat itself.

This does not justify double standards, nor does it address the subject of them.

Quote:

Yes, a non-feminist opinion. All I'm saying is that you're not a feminist, that some women are not feminists. And there's nothing wrong with that; I'm sure you have your reasons to not be a feminist, many women do.

Why, because I don't agree that double standards are acceptable? That women should be held to the exact same standards as men? That sexism is equally offensive when it comes from women as when it comes from men? I'm sorry I don't agree that there should be different standards of acceptable behaviour, but that really doesn't hold with me when it comes to equality.

Quote:

But, what I do object to is that, you're trying to discredit the experience of other women, who do feel oppressed, by using your gender as your authority on the subject.

I have not tried to discredit the experience of any woman through any means. I have expressed my opinion. You don't have to agree with it, but trying to twist it in to being some form of attack against other women is just plain wrong.

Quote:

That is misogyny. Just because you're a woman, doesn't mean you understand what all the other women in the world go through.

I made no claims to do this.

Quote:

And, by the way, I don't think you understand what "manspaining" actually is. It's when a man talks down to a woman. This word has been made up because it is a very common phenomenon, just like racism and homophobia. Are you also "insulted" or made uncomfortable when people mention those 2 words? "Womansplaining" is not a real word that has been proven by innumerable past occurrences, it's just something you made up in order to insult Verene.

Again, I know what "mansplaining" is. Thank you, though, for "womansplaning" it to me ... for the second time in this thread. It's no less of a word than "mansplaining", and is apparently just as common. I didn't make it up to insult Verene, I used to to demonstrate a point; a point which you have further demonstrated here. You find the word, and the way in which it was used, to be insulting (obviously, you think I insulted Verene with it, so I should meet no argument there). It was used in the precise manner as "mansplaining" is often used, however in this case it's woman to woman.

From your argument I take two things: you find it acceptable for women to use insulting and derogatory terms towards men, but not vice versa and/or woman to woman & that it's acceptable for women to be sexist but not for men. <- I'm not trying to insult you, and I'm hoping this is not what you intended to say, but it IS what you have said.

While you've chosen to respond to me as opposed to Master Fuhon, we have essentially been discussing the same points of sexist feminism vs. equality feminism and the abolition of double standards for both sexes.

Unlucky Slayer · Dec 29, 2010, 10:44 PM // 22:44

*sighs* Im ending this now as it has flown completely off the mark. Have a nice day.